hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 4, 2019 16:02:32 GMT 10
Hi, I wanted to try brewing with rice (just for the shake of doing something different) and I was looking into japanese lagers but it turns out I have some vienna malt and some kolsch yeast, so... vienna rice kolner? STATS- OG 1048 - FG 1008-9 - ABV 5-5.2% - SRM 3.15 - IBU 20 WATER- Very soft water - Cl to SO4 Ratio: Balanced - Thinner mash, less sparge water -> avoid beer taste husky or astringent NOTE: Adjust efficiency! Less sparge -> less efficiency MALT62.4% Weyermann Pilsner 25.8% White rice 11.7% Voyager Vienna RICE PREP- Cook rice for 20' in 4 times more water than rice. - Add cooked rice and rice cooking water to mash MASH10' 55ºC Proteinase: enhances the head retention and reduce haze / Peptidase: release yeast nutrients 60' 65ºC Saccharification/Beta-amylase: extract main fermentable sugars 10' 72ºC Glyco-protein/Alpha-amylase: stabilize head/foam 10' 78ºC Mash out: improve efficiency 20' 78ºC Sparge: improve efficiency BOIL60' Hallertau to ~13.3 IBU 15' Hallertau to ~6.7 IBU 15' 1/2tablet/10L Deltafloc 10' 1/2tsp/10L Yeast Nutrient FERMENTChill to 18ºC and pitch Lallemand Kolsch yeast Ferment at 16ºC for 7 days Raise to 18ºC for 1 day (diacetyl rest) Lager at 5ºC for 1 month Raise to 20ºC and bottle to 3.2 CO2 vol Condition at least 2 weeks LINKSbyo.com/article/koelsch-style-profile/beerandbrewing.com/spassmacher-kolsch-recipe/beerandbrewing.com/homebrewing-a-kolsch/allaboutbeer.com/article/rhenish-hybrids/beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/05/brewing-a-kolsch-beer-recipe-beer-styles/QUESTIONS1.- Would you do more rice percentage? 2.- How do you cook the rice and what ratio rice/water you use? 3.- What do you think of the fermentation schedule time and temp? what would you change? 4.- What would you change from the recipe? Why? 5.- Any other advice about brewing with rice? -boom- |
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Joined: Jan 3, 2018 22:14:59 GMT 10
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Post by Lord Raja Goomba I on Dec 4, 2019 17:36:09 GMT 10
I brew with rice reasonably regularly. I also use corn syrup (Korean grocer style) and rice malt from the supermarket for about $3.50 for 1.2kg.
I have a faux lager with Oslo just about ready to drink with 20% rice (my max due to a poorly researched understanding of max diastase effects from the base malt) and that works fine for me.
I cook to sludge and calculate it as a 100°C sparge addition to a lower temp mash, keeping a boiled kettle and 2L of cool water to micro-adjust to the correct mash temp.
I've actually even used rice with ale malt in a Saison to mimic thinner oils style wort with tasty effect.
With syrup I've seen advice for 500ml max (for approx 20L beer) to stop it being too astringent, and again it works for me. Software has corn syrup at 0 SRM for this calc. I have it in my cream ale which again is a tasty beer.
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Joined: Dec 24, 2017 9:15:10 GMT 10
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Post by Bribie on Dec 4, 2019 17:45:53 GMT 10
Rice should be a good adjunct for Kolsch to get the dry, light character. The Weyermann Pilsner malt is a good choice. I was at Beervana in Wellington in 2011 and attended a lecture by Thomas Weyermann and asked him about diastatic power of the regular Wey Pils malt and he said it can convert up to 30% of adjuncts in the mash.
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 4, 2019 17:50:28 GMT 10
Rice should be a good adjunct for Kolsch to get the dry, light character. The Weyermann Pilsner malt is a good choice. I was at Beervana in Wellington in 2011 and attended a lecture by Thomas Weyermann and asked him about diastatic power of the regular Wey Pils malt and he said it can convert up to 30% of adjuncts in the mash. Mmm interesting because most of the Japanese lager recipes I've seen have more than that.... Maybe it's in order to keep some rice starch? Anyway, if I use 11% Vienna that will convert itself and will be able to convert a little bit of the rice, 25% rice and the rest pils... In theory it will have the diastatic power to convert all of it! |
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 4, 2019 17:52:22 GMT 10
I brew with rice reasonably regularly. I also use corn syrup (Korean grocer style) and rice malt from the supermarket for about $3.50 for 1.2kg. I have a faux lager with Oslo just about ready to drink with 20% rice (my max due to a poorly researched understanding of max diastase effects from the base malt) and that works fine for me. I cook to sludge and calculate it as a 100°C sparge addition to a lower temp mash, keeping a boiled kettle and 2L of cool water to micro-adjust to the correct mash temp. I've actually even used rice with ale malt in a Saison to mimic thinner oils style wort with tasty effect. With syrup I've seen advice for 500ml max (for approx 20L beer) to stop it being too astringent, and again it works for me. Software has corn syrup at 0 SRM for this calc. I have it in my cream ale which again is a tasty beer. Thanks! Plenty of new things to try! What rice variety do you recommend for a first timer? I was thinking jasmine... Aromatic... |
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redbaron
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Post by redbaron on Dec 4, 2019 19:06:19 GMT 10
QUESTIONS1.- Would you do more rice percentage? 2.- How do you cook the rice and what ratio rice/water you use? 3.- What do you think of the fermentation schedule time and temp? what would you change? 4.- What would you change from the recipe? Why? 5.- Any other advice about brewing with rice? -boom- 1. 25% will work nicely. 2. I cook it in a separate pot, with the 1:4 ratio you're going to use till the water has been absorbed. You'll get most of this water back when you mash in, so account for it in your final sparge calcs (my experience- hopefully yours is the same). 3. I've never brewed a Kolsch, so can't really comment on the ferment schedule, apart from to say let the D-rest run until you reach FG. 4. As above, can't really comment apart from it looks to be good. 5. If you attempt to add the rice to the mash tun after cooking, you'll end up with hellish rice dough balls. I let my rice cool to around 70deg, then stir through a handful or 2 of the crushed malt. After 5min or so, you'll see that the amalyses have cut through the starch holding the grain together, and it will be much easier to incorporate it into your regular mash. Let us know how this one turns out- I'm thinking of brewing something very similar myself, but with S-189 for a clean summer lager. Cheers, RB |
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 4, 2019 19:57:34 GMT 10
QUESTIONS1.- Would you do more rice percentage? 2.- How do you cook the rice and what ratio rice/water you use? 3.- What do you think of the fermentation schedule time and temp? what would you change? 4.- What would you change from the recipe? Why? 5.- Any other advice about brewing with rice? -boom- 1. 25% will work nicely. 2. I cook it in a separate pot, with the 1:4 ratio you're going to use till the water has been absorbed. You'll get most of this water back when you mash in, so account for it in your final sparge calcs (my experience- hopefully yours is the same). 3. I've never brewed a Kolsch, so can't really comment on the ferment schedule, apart from to say let the D-rest run until you reach FG. 4. As above, can't really comment apart from it looks to be good. 5. If you attempt to add the rice to the mash tun after cooking, you'll end up with hellish rice dough balls. I let my rice cool to around 70deg, then stir through a handful or 2 of the crushed malt. After 5min or so, you'll see that the amalyses have cut through the starch holding the grain together, and it will be much easier to incorporate it into your regular mash. Let us know how this one turns out- I'm thinking of brewing something very similar myself, but with S-189 for a clean summer lager. Cheers, RB Great advice! I'll sure do it as you say. I'll make the recipe tomorrow if I have time and I'll brew next week. Keep you updated. Thanks! |
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Joined: Dec 24, 2017 9:15:10 GMT 10
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Post by Bribie on Dec 5, 2019 7:14:21 GMT 10
I also let rice cool down to low 70s but add a full kilo of crushed base malt, and it turns from a think stodge into a runny liquid after only half a minute of stirring, then pour into main mash to do its thing. This also works with polenta if you are doing a corn brew such as an American lager or a malt liquo'
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 9, 2019 14:09:05 GMT 10
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labels
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Post by labels on Dec 9, 2019 19:44:41 GMT 10
You shouldn't have too many issues. The only thing I can pick up on is rice will eventually convert to simple sugars which the yeast will metabolise to CO2 and alcohol. This will tend to thin the beer out quite a bit and you may end up with a beer very low in body and mouthfeel and lacking head formation/retention.
You can overcome this with about 7-10% Carapils malt or some other high dextrin malt. Another factor you may want to review is the protein rest, this could have the effect of thinning the finished beer even more if you're using fully modified malts. Personally, I don't think it's necessary with modern malts but... YMMV.
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 10, 2019 7:56:00 GMT 10
You shouldn't have too many issues. The only thing I can pick up on is rice will eventually convert to simple sugars which the yeast will metabolise to CO2 and alcohol. This will tend to thin the beer out quite a bit and you may end up with a beer very low in body and mouthfeel and lacking head formation/retention. You can overcome this with about 7-10% Carapils malt or some other high dextrin malt. Another factor you may want to review is the protein rest, this could have the effect of thinning the finished beer even more if you're using fully modified malts. Personally, I don't think it's necessary with modern malts but... YMMV. You're right about the 55° proteinase rest. I've included it into my typical mash steps just for convenience because that's exactly the temperature of the hot tap water in my apartment. Also it improves head retention and reduces haze but yes, I can tell it thins out the body, specially with pilsner malt. My last Berliner weisse is a good example of that. So I will remove it from this recipe. Thanks for the advice. OK, Dextrin malts (carpils, carafoam, dextrapils) are a way of adding long chain unfermentable (by saccharomyces) sugars, dextrins, without the caramel flavour from crystal malts. They are as pale as pale malt or pilsner. But... What is the difference between using these and raising the saccharification temperature? A Kolsch is typically mashed at 65, but it doesn't have rice... what if I mash at 67 and adjust the OG a couple of units up? The point of adding rice is thinning out the beer, make it more drinkable, even with very drinkable beers like pilsner/lager or Kolsch (pilsner northern cousin). But the objective of making this beer was to try brewing with rice because I've never done it before. Now you added another challenge: how to brew with rice and make it look like it doesn't have rice! Ha! |
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labels
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Post by labels on Dec 10, 2019 20:34:34 GMT 10
The Glyco-Protein rest does improve head and head retention. I've never read anything that suggests it adds body or improves mouthfeel. Yes using rice for a lighter body is a great idea but, you don't want a beer with the body and mouthfeel of water either.
What I'm drinking now is a lager containing 30% white sugar - yep, ordinary white table sugar. The recipe for 50L was 9Kg Glad Pils, 1Kg Carapils and 3Kg white sugar to an OG of 1062. After fermentation, the beer was diluted 25% with boiled, RO water at kegging time to yield four full cornies at approx 4%ABV. I'm glad the carapils is there, nice light body but with a nice mouthfeel, fluffy white long lasting head and ultra-super clean flavour profile. Very boring beer but a great challange to brew. I used to use rice a fair bit for this style but find white sugar does the same job with a lot less effort. Cost of this beer is about 60c/L.
EDIT: I'd just like to add that brewing 50L of beer does not yield 50L of finished beer. I ended up with two fermenters of about 23L each but fermenter losses are usually around 3-4L each - sometimes higher because you don't want any cloudiness in lagers - aesthetic I know but it's what people expect.
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 11, 2019 12:27:22 GMT 10
The Glyco-Protein rest does improve head and head retention. I've never read anything that suggests it adds body or improves mouthfeel. Mmmm you have me confused a little here... - Proteinase is at 55 degrees and it improves head retention and reduces haze. I guess it makes the proteins coagulate -> thins out the body, it happened to my last beliner-weisse, i removed it from the recipe - Glyco-protein is at 72 degrees and its purpose is to improve head retention as well. I never said anything about adding body or improving mouthfeel, and if i did, i didn't mean to! To be honest I don't know more about this rest, maybe it coagulates proteins as well, in that case it would be bad for body good for clarity, but I haven't read any of that either... My question was if raising the main saccharification rest temperature from the usual 64 degrees a couple of degrees or 3 would have a similar result as using carapils/carafoam. The higher the temperature in this step you get more long chain sugars that regular sacc. cerevisiae yeast doesn't eat, resulting in more body/sweetness, but the FG would be a little higher, that's why I also said to increase a couple of units the OG. It looks like you have enough for a couple of Christmas BBQs ! Maybe the final beer is boring but the recipe/brewing is fascinating. Well done! For this beer I'm making I have free hops and yeast so it will be around 90cents/L ...and I thought that was cheap! HA! |
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redbaron
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Post by redbaron on Dec 11, 2019 16:34:38 GMT 10
What I'm drinking now is a lager containing 30% white sugar - yep, ordinary white table sugar. Out of interest Labels, when do you add the sugar? I normally use 15-20% white sugar in aussie lagers, and at these percentages I add it direct to the kettle with about 10min to run. At higher %'s, I'd consider adding it as a stepped sugar addition to the fermenter- hence my curiosity with your process. Cheers, RB |
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labels
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Post by labels on Dec 11, 2019 17:56:36 GMT 10
What I'm drinking now is a lager containing 30% white sugar - yep, ordinary white table sugar. Out of interest Labels, when do you add the sugar? I normally use 15-20% white sugar in aussie lagers, and at these percentages I add it direct to the kettle with about 10min to run. At higher %'s, I'd consider adding it as a stepped sugar addition to the fermenter- hence my curiosity with your process. Cheers, RB Pretty much the same as you, about 15mins before flame out and the same time as I add the Whirlfloc and yeast nutrient (if required) |
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labels
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Post by labels on Dec 11, 2019 18:02:37 GMT 10
The Glyco-Protein rest does improve head and head retention. I've never read anything that suggests it adds body or improves mouthfeel. Mmmm you have me confused a little here... - Proteinase is at 55 degrees and it improves head retention and reduces haze. I guess it makes the proteins coagulate -> thins out the body, it happened to my last beliner-weisse, i removed it from the recipe - Glyco-protein is at 72 degrees and its purpose is to improve head retention as well. I never said anything about adding body or improving mouthfeel, and if i did, i didn't mean to! To be honest I don't know more about this rest, maybe it coagulates proteins as well, in that case it would be bad for body good for clarity, but I haven't read any of that either... My question was if raising the main saccharification rest temperature from the usual 64 degrees a couple of degrees or 3 would have a similar result as using carapils/carafoam. The higher the temperature in this step you get more long chain sugars that regular sacc. cerevisiae yeast doesn't eat, resulting in more body/sweetness, but the FG would be a little higher, that's why I also said to increase a couple of units the OG. It looks like you have enough for a couple of Christmas BBQs ! Maybe the final beer is boring but the recipe/brewing is fascinating. Well done! For this beer I'm making I have free hops and yeast so it will be around 90cents/L ...and I thought that was cheap! HA! The 70-72C rest is the glyco-protein rest and at temperature certain proteins become water soluble with the aid of an enzyme in the malt.I don't have the exact knowledge on hand of what enzyme or which protein but have read about it in detail, just didn't commit it to memory but I'm sure with enough Googling you will get science behind it. |
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hectorz
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Post by hectorz on Dec 11, 2019 18:45:17 GMT 10
Mmmm you have me confused a little here... - Proteinase is at 55 degrees and it improves head retention and reduces haze. I guess it makes the proteins coagulate -> thins out the body, it happened to my last beliner-weisse, i removed it from the recipe - Glyco-protein is at 72 degrees and its purpose is to improve head retention as well. I never said anything about adding body or improving mouthfeel, and if i did, i didn't mean to! To be honest I don't know more about this rest, maybe it coagulates proteins as well, in that case it would be bad for body good for clarity, but I haven't read any of that either... My question was if raising the main saccharification rest temperature from the usual 64 degrees a couple of degrees or 3 would have a similar result as using carapils/carafoam. The higher the temperature in this step you get more long chain sugars that regular sacc. cerevisiae yeast doesn't eat, resulting in more body/sweetness, but the FG would be a little higher, that's why I also said to increase a couple of units the OG. It looks like you have enough for a couple of Christmas BBQs ! Maybe the final beer is boring but the recipe/brewing is fascinating. Well done! For this beer I'm making I have free hops and yeast so it will be around 90cents/L ...and I thought that was cheap! HA! The 70-72C rest is the glyco-protein rest and at temperature certain proteins become water soluble with the aid of an enzyme in the malt.I don't have the exact knowledge on hand of what enzyme or which protein but have read about it in detail, just didn't commit it to memory but I'm sure with enough Googling you will get science behind it. mmmm interesting! will do. thanks for the tip |
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... Scarlett Olivia born 5:11 this morning. Time for a bevvie 